Jump to content

Talk:Punjabi language

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reverts

[edit]

@UnbiasedSN: What is your issue with Pakistan being included specifically? It is officially recognised as a language in the Punjab province, both by the Punjab Assembly and in the Census. By your logic, Haryana, Delhi and West Bengal shouldn't be included either, and by that standard, all language infoboxes should be scrutinised. It's unreasonable. As far as the "Punjabic" term is concerned, it has been used previous in academic works, see Google Scholar. نعم البدل (talk) 01:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

show me a source. Otherwise stop crying and edit warring. UnbiasedSN (talk) 01:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only two source use Punjabic. Barely enough to claim as an actual word.... You need to so more research. UnbiasedSN (talk) 01:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UnbiasedSN: If that's your behaviour, then I will report you. There are reliable references for both issues, and the term "Punjabic" and clear ambiguity between dialects of Punjabi, and Punjabic dialects/languages, however I am sensing some bad faith from your end. نعم البدل (talk) 01:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a source saying it's not "It is the official language of the Indian state of Punjab and is one of the languages recognized by the Indian constitution. In Pakistan Punjabi is spoken by some 70 million speakers, mostly in Punjab province, but official status at both the national and the provincial level is reserved for Urdu." By britannica. UnbiasedSN (talk) 01:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UnbiasedSN: Urdu and Punjabi are both officially recognised by the Punjab assembly. In fact, Punjabi was recognised as the language of Punjab way before Urdu. Urdu was only recognised in Punjab recently. That does not warrant the removal of Pakistan from the list. The reference is directly taken from the Punjab laws, that supersedes, Britannica which likely didn't even know about it. نعم البدل (talk) 01:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Waiting on source... UnbiasedSN (talk) 01:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The references were already included in the infobox, which you kept removing! نعم البدل (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Checked source. Not even credible. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you say it's unreliable? That's a discussion for WP:RELIABLE, and certainly not for you to make an arbitrary call on. نعم البدل (talk) 02:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nowhere does it even mention official status.... UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The act named "THE PUNJAB INSTITUTE OF LANGUAGE, ART AND CULTURE ACT 2004":
::::::::::Preamble.– Whereas it is expedient to provide for the establishment of the Punjab Institute of Language, Art and Culture for the patronage, promotion and development of language, art and culture in the Punjab and matters connected therewith or incidental thereto;
It is hereby enacted as follows:-
1. Short title, extent and commencement.– (1) This Act may be called the Punjab Institute of Language, Art and Culture Act 2004.
(2) It extends to the whole of the Punjab.
(3) It shall come into force at once.
I would say that's pretty conclusive that Punjabi has been officially recognised in the Province of Punjab. 🧐 نعم البدل (talk) 02:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not showing even the word official.... UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's literally a mandate; an act passed in the Punjab Assembly. How much more official do you want it to be? نعم البدل (talk) 02:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A mandate is completely different than recognition.... UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How so? This act established PILAC which regulates the Punjabi language, and informs the government on matters relating to the Punjabi language. Did you even bother reading the entire thing? It's more specific than the references given for the Indian states. The reference given for Haryana, doesn't even mention the word "official". نعم البدل (talk) 02:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then take out haryana... What's your point?
I've shown you a source where it says it's not officially recognized by the most trusted source ever. Then you proceed to show me not even a proper source but an excerpt. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clarify what you mean by "proper source", [punjablaws.gov.pk] is a reliable government source. What is your issue exactly? نعم البدل (talk) 02:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have you even gone on the site you sourced? Nowhere does it say anything about punjabi being recognized as an official language. This conversation with you is going no where... UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLUESKY That act was a major development for the Punjabi language in Punjab; it does not need to specifically clarify that it's "officially" recognises Punjabi, because that is the whole point of the act! نعم البدل (talk) 02:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Britannica says the sky is blue it's blue... If Britannica says it's not recognized as an official language it's not an official language... Glad to see you resorted to going to Admins for your POV pushing. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Britannica does not pass laws in Pakistan. It has not acknowledged the act that was passed in 2004, or has talked about it, and it is also wrong or contradicting since Sindhi is also an "provincial official" language in Sindh as per Britannica itself [1](!), and more recently Pashto in KPK [ref]. Simply put Britannica is wrong. نعم البدل (talk) 02:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And Britannica was updated on Mar. 26, 2024. Can you please kindly show another 3rd party source showing it's recognition. Also, "Simply put Britannica is wrong..." WOW. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reference for the recognition of which language? I literally showed you Britannica has contradicted itself. Sindhi is literally an official language in Sindh and Britannica itself has mentioned it? نعم البدل (talk) 02:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not talking about sindh... Stop trying to change the topic. Please stick to the topic at hand which you can't even back up. This is clearly a blatant attempt at POV pushing. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on a minute.
Britannica says regarding the Punjabi language in Pakistan:
  • but official status at both the national and the provincial level is reserved for Urdu.
Yet when it comes to Sindhi it has explicitly stated:
  • spoken by about 23 million people in Pakistan, mostly living in the southeastern province of Sindh, where it has official status
That is contradicting itself. Go learn what "POV pushing" actually means before throwing it around. Britannica is literally wrong here.
The Punjab laws clearly indicate that Punjabi is an officially recognised language in the Punjab. The fact that you cannot accept this is concerning. نعم البدل (talk) 03:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Show a source then... Any 3rd party source. As proper research is due in this case. You obviously can't accept the facts that it's not recognized. In this case, you are obviously POV pushing. You're whole editing history is showing hints of linguistic gatekeeping. UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. You barged in hailing Britannica as some intensely reliable source and now you're backtracking on it, and 2. Punjab Institute of Language, Art & Culture (PILAC) was established in September, 2004 for patronage, promotion and development of Punjabi Language. source: PILAC itself, or are you now going to argue that the institute which regulates the Punjabi language in Pakistan is now also wrong and POV pushing? Lmao. نعم البدل (talk) 03:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Britannica still stands. Stands stronger than your argument to be honest. Yet, I still see no other source mentioned by you. Obvious POV pushing due to such strong convictions without proper research. UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just showed you Britannica contradicts itself, it's a bit amusing to see you still hail it as reliable in this case. Does Britannica also regulate the Punjabi language by any chance? 😂 نعم البدل (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I brought two references:
1. Punjabi laws.
2. PILAC itself
None of them are reliable for you, but apparently a site which contradicts itself is reliable. 😂 نعم البدل (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not credible. Mandates doesn't equal recognition by Pakistan government. Find credible sources please. LMAO
[2] UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the objectives which the PILAC act hoped to achieve:
  • advise the Government on all matters of policy relating to promotion of the Punjabi language, art and culture;
  • facilitate and patronise research activities and programmes regarding the Punjabi language, literature, art and culture representing various regions of the Punjab;
  • enrich Punjabi language enabling it to absorb the advancements in Science and Technology, and progress of modern society;
  • collect, preserve and arrange books of classical and modern Punjabi literature and set up a reference library with modern facilities and provisions for the common users and research scholars;
  • prepare or cause to prepare dictionaries and encyclopedia in the Punjabi language;
  • enable the Punjabi language to serve as a rich source for broadening the scope, usages and dimensions of the Urdu language;
  • interact with cultural and literary institutions, organizations, and libraries in the Punjab and other Provinces of Pakistan engaged in the promotion of language and culture;
  • interact and collaborate with various institutions, established all over the world, with a view to promoting Punjabi language, art and culture;
That sounds and acts like an official language. I wonder if the Indian government was this specific. 🧐
نعم البدل (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where does it say it has official recognition... WOW... This is so sad.... There's a chinese cultural society in my neighborhood that has similar goals... Does that mean chinese is an official language of the USA.. Promotion does not equal Recognition...This is a clear and shut case. This is such a pathetic attempt at POV pushing. UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the USA or a US state passed an act or law this specific for the Chinese language, and not just a "Chinese cultural society" (because you know that to equate the Punjab Assembly to a "Chinese cultural society" is unjust), I would absolutely accept it as an official recognition of the Chinese language in the US. The Urdu and Hindi articles state that they are recognised languages in South Africa, even though they're only "protected" language. Hindi is apparently a third court language in the UAE, and that is enough for to be a recognition of the Hindi language in the UAE. This definitely suffices. نعم البدل (talk) 03:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No laws were passed making Punjabi an official language in Pakistan.... If so please state a source other than a pathetic attempt at showcasing a outdated website. LOL 2004.... UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that was when the act was passed – in 2004. At this point YOU are now the one who is POV pushing. You have equated the Punjab Assembly to a "chinese cultural society". That is actually ridiculous. نعم البدل (talk) 03:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still waiting on an actual source.... UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also the website where it makes no mention of official recognition is from 2004. Goes to show you don't even read what you cite. UnbiasedSN (talk) 03:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What source are you demanding? I gave you the act passed by the Punjab government. The act in itself is a recognition of the Punjabi language, it doesn't matter it doesn't specifically mention the word "official".
You can have the last reply, I'm waiting for an admin. نعم البدل (talk) 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UnbiasedSN - GlottoLog uses the term 'Greater Panjabic': https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/lahn1241 MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 13:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I can admit to my folly here. It is a real word, albeit rarely used. UnbiasedSN (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UnbiasedSN @نعم البدل - 'Brittanica' is not always a reliable source. Please see: WP:BRITANNICA.

"Encyclopædia Britannica is a quality general encyclopedia (including its online edition, Encyclopædia Britannica Online). Its editorial process includes fact checking and publishing corrections. Encyclopædia Britannica is a tertiary source. Some entries are written by named authors and their general expertise can be evaluated, and entries should be evaluated on an individual basis. Editors prefer reliable secondary sources over the Encyclopædia Britannica when available. From 2009 to 2010, the Encyclopædia Britannica Online accepted a small number of content submissions from the general public. Although these submissions undergo the encyclopedia's editorial process, some editors believe that content from non-staff contributors is less reliable than the encyclopedia's staff-authored content. Content authorship is disclosed in the article history."

Is the article you two are discussing written by invited experts/staff or by non-staff contributors from the general public? MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 13:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Better source than just using this [3] Where it says the "government MAY make rules on this" and "the Institute may make regulations not inconsistent with this Act and the rules made thereunder". This is in no way making punjabi an official language in Pakistan. There's no 3rd party source even backing this claim. UnbiasedSN (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UnbiasedSN: None of those are relevant or have anything to do with verifiability. The "government may make rules on this" isn't about the status of the language, and the "institute" is PILAC, which regulates the Punjabi language Are you looking for a source that says this act was passed or what? Because if so, all you need to do you is search the act name and you'll find many 3rd party sources for this. نعم البدل (talk) 17:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then how come it's so hard to find a source with "official" status of Punjabi within Pakistan. You keep claiming it's so easy but yet I can't find one and you can't produce one that goes beyond just an "act" being passed. An act being passed does not equate to becoming official. More thorough research is needed to assert that claim. At this point, we're going back and forth and as EducatedRedneck said, we should leave it in the status section rather than lying in the infobox. UnbiasedSN (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the article on the punjabi language was fact-checked by the The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica and was written by Christopher Shackle who has more credentials than any of us here. Cheers mate. UnbiasedSN (talk) 15:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PILA Act and the "Official Language" in Punjab, Pakistan

[edit]

Note: I have refactored this thread out of the section ("Reverts") above, as the scope has progressed beyond reverts and into the substance of what sources are necessary to characterize a language as "official". EducatedRedneck (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I didn't read through the prolonged back-and-forth above, here's my view of the situation:

  • The source being used to support Punjabi as an official language is a law, and thus subject to WP:PRIMARY. Laws are notoriously difficult to interpret, and attempting to do so constitutes WP:OR or WP:SYNTH.
  • The source further makes no mention of being an "official" language (a term which is poorly defined in this discussion). We are not permitted to rely on our opinions of what constitutes 'official'. We must only report what reliable sources sate.
  • I haven't the expertise to assess the reliability of the Britannica source.
  • No source is needed to say that Punjabi is not the official language. Similarly, no source is required to show that Portuguese is not the official language. If no reliable source can be found which says it is, then the null hypothesis is that it is not.
  • The Punjab Institute of Language, Art, and Culture is already properly referenced in the article itself, in the "Advocacy" section. Note that it does not assert that Punjabi is recognized as an official language, only acknowledges the government-backed establishment of an advocacy group.

I believe UnbiasedSN was right to remove it as a listed "official language", and anyone seeking to put it back in must abide by WP:BURDEN. EducatedRedneck (talk) 16:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@EducatedRedneck and MaplesyrupSushi: Apologies for this long-winded reply, but there's a few things I'd like to break down:
  • We are not permitted to rely on our opinions of what constitutes 'official'. – I agree, it shouldn't be our opinion on what constitutes as 'official', neither mine, yours or 'UnbiasedSN'. However, Pakistani sources will not dub it precisely as an 'official' language because that term is reserved and loosely refers to nationally-recognised official languages like Urdu and English. That will make it almost impossible to include any provincial language recognised by any provincial governments, if they are not national languages.
  • At the same time, the term 'official' is also ambiguous, and from my perspective it has been kept so for all language-related articles, and I can provide examples of this from other articles, if you'd like. As I mentioned earlier, the infobox states that Punjabi is an official language in Haryana, but the source doesn't mention the word 'official' anywhere. In Delhi, it is merely an additional language, and in West Bengal barely anyone speaks Punjabi, and I'm not even sure if there any areas within West Bengal were Punjabi is spoken by more than 10% of the populace [4]. Yet, we draw the line at Punjab, Pakistan because it doesn't specifically mention the word "official"?
  • The source further makes no mention of being an "official" language – Now, bearing in mind what I've said earlier, the act outlines its objectives and specifically states: Whereas it is expedient to provide for the ... promotion and development of language ... in the Punjab and matters connected therewith or incidental thereto, followed by the list of objectives of PILAC, as mentioned above. What more interpretation does that require?
  • only acknowledges the government-backed establishment of an advocacy group – Again, surely that depends on your interpretation of the meaning of the word 'official'? Why was PILAC established, if not because the Punjab assembly recognised the Punjabi language? If this was in any other country, it would have been more than enough to include it in the infobox. In Pakistan, Punjabi is standardised, taught in schools, with official textbooks from the Punjab textbook boards, along with Punjabi periodicals and publications, along with MNA's speaking Punjabi in the Punjab assembly. All of that is being negated merely because the word "official" isn't present. نعم البدل (talk) 17:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@نعم البدل First, thank you for the detailed reply. This is exactly how it's supposed to work; colleagues trying to find what's best for the encyclopedia! I'll respond point by point.
  • That will make it almost impossible to include any provincial language recognised by any provincial governments, if they are not national languages. I think it doesn't have to be so strict. If the provincial government adopts it as a provincial language, that seems sufficient to me. I apologize for my US centrism, but the example that comes to mind is national vs state birds, flowers, etc. The US national bird is the bald eagle, but each state can also have its own state bird. Similarly, I'd imagine regional governments can recognize a language as their local lingua franca.
  • Yet, we draw the line at Punjab, Pakistan because it doesn't specifically mention the word "official"? Your insistence starts to make more sense; you're trying to make the encyclopedia consistent across articles. That's a noble goal. Unfortunately, a consensus on this talk page won't be able to influence the other article. Perhaps it'd be useful to bring this up at the Languages Wikiproject. My view is clearly a strict interpretation of WP:NOR, but I'm also new to this subject area. I think posting to that wikiproject and asking, "What sources are considered sufficient to categorize a language as an official regional language?" would be outstanding, and a consensus there WOULD affect other articles, including this one.
  • Related to the above, we don't need it to be the Pakistani government that says it's the official language. If there's a reliable source that describes it thus, we can use that. In many ways, it'd be better to have an academic article describe something as official, as they are qualified (and can be verified) to make such syntheses.
  • What more interpretation does that require? The issue is that it does require interpretation. For example, an act which intends to promote the Information Technology industry in a country does not make Information Technology that country's official industry. The only thing I can draw from that act, is that it's an act aimed to promote a language (and culture). Such things happen all the time, and while encouraging, don't constitute official adoption by the government, merely encouraging it to grow as a private (or nonprofit) entity. I'll grant that it could also be interpreted to be an official adoption, but the fact that there is more than one way to look at it means it'd be WP:SYNTH to infer one particular interpretation.
  • If this was in any other country, it would have been more than enough to include it in the infobox I disagree. If we suppose the US passed an act to recognize and express support for the Chinese Language and Arts Center, that does not constitute adoption of Chinese as the national language. Conversely, Hawaii did declare that "English and Hawaiian are the official languages of Hawaii." Because neither interpretation nor inference are required, that works.
I'll keep thinking about what you said, especially about other articles being inconsistent. Thanks again for your detailed response! EducatedRedneck (talk) 20:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is exactly how it's supposed to work – Appreciate it, I did hope for a discussion like this from the start, it's unfortunate how things spiralled down!
  • Perhaps it'd be useful to bring this up at the Languages Wikiproject – I will bear this in mind, thank you.
Food for thought,
  • Similarly, I'd imagine regional governments can recognize a language as their local lingua franca. – So just a little more context, when it comes to Pakistan, Urdu is considered to be the sole lingua franca/national language (as well as an official language), while provincial languages are spoken in the respective provinces. Realistically, Urdu should also be the sole national-official language, but as things stand, English is an official language alongside Urdu, but it's mainly used for administrative work (or perhaps somewhat of an 'elite' language).
  • an act which intends to promote the Information Technology industry in a country does not make Information Technology that country's official industry – while I understand the comparison, I think the emphasis on Punjabi being an 'official' language is stronger, as like I say, it's implemented in every department ie, Education (standardised textbooks, taught as a subject all the way to a PhD, though not a medium of instruction), Publications (ie. Periodicals, Books, Journals), biggest language of the province and the country as per the census, and also having been employed in politics.
  • Conversely, Hawaii did declare that "English and Hawaiian are the official languages of Hawaii." Because neither interpretation nor inference are required, that works. – Fair point.
نعم البدل (talk) 05:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Punjabi... [is] implemented in every department ie, [examples] That is very important context! I think my issue was that I didn't see that in the PILA source. I also didn't give it a close read, so perhaps I missed it. If it's not in that source, then it seems like there should be a reliable source describing this somewhere!
That may not be enough to describe it as an "official language" (as it'd require WP:SYNTHing the "pervasively used" datum and the "encouraged by the PILA Act" datum), but it would certainly bear mentioning in the Status section! I took a quick look through, and that section right now says that Despite gaining official recognition at the provincial level, Punjabi is not a language of instruction for primary or secondary school students in Punjab Province (unlike Sindhi and Pashto in other provinces). I note this source is 7 years old at this point, so perhaps there's a more recent one that reflects the state of affairs better.
More importantly, there's an inconsistency. Right above the previous passage, the article states, Eventually, Punjabi was granted status as a provincial language in Punjab Province! Sadly, it doesn't have a source, so I'd like to add the {{cn}} template while I look, but it makes me think that a source must be out there. That would solve this whole "avoiding SYNTH" issue nicely! I'm not too familiar with the subject, so if you could look as well, I'd be much obliged. EducatedRedneck (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is the most reasonable action going forward. UnbiasedSN (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@نعم البدل Forgot to ping you in the above. Whoops! EducatedRedneck (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@EducatedRedneck: – Yep, I didn't receive any ping. Nevertheless.
  • I took a quick look through, and that section right now says that Despite gaining official recognition at the provincial level, Punjabi is not a language of instruction for primary or secondary school students in Punjab Province (unlike Sindhi and Pashto in other provinces). I note this source is 7 years old at this point, so perhaps there's a more recent one that reflects the state of affairs better. – Unfortunately not, the recent Punjab Chief Minister did try to invoke some nationalist sensation by pointing towards this, but nothing set in stone. Punjabi is standardised and taught in some schools, but it isn't the medium of instruction anywhere, at least not that I know. Perhaps that's what sets it aside. Regardless, thanks for your reply. نعم البدل (talk) 22:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually quite simple. We won't call a language an "official language" if it is actually nowhere referred to as such. We don't apply OR to regulations or laws and see whether they fit our definitions of what an official language is.

If a primary source (e.g. national or regional laws/regulations) designates a language as an "official language", that would be a start, although then WP:PRIMARY applies. (But note that legal enshrinement is not necessary for a language to be an "official language". Quite a few languages (e.g. Dutch) are described as "official languages" in quality academic sources because these languages de facto are used in all official contexts even though no law explicitly enshrines the status of these languages.) So it all boils down to the question: do high-quality secondary sources ever refer to the status of Punjabi in Pakistan as one of being an "official language"?

While absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I want just to note here that three scholarly sources about Punjabi do not mention any official status of Punjabi in Pakistan (although they do not fail to mention its official status in the Indian state of Punjab): the entry "Punjabi" by T.K. Bhatia in the Concise Encyclopedia of Languages of the World; the chapter "Panjabi" by C. Shakle in The Indo-Aryan Languages; and A Descriptive Grammar of Hindko, Panjabi, and Saraiki, a fairly recent source that wouldn't fail to mention an official status of Punjabi in Pakistan if it actually was fact. –Austronesier (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier::
  • We won't call a language an "official language" if it is actually nowhere referred to as such. We don't apply OR to regulations or laws and see whether they fit our definitions of what an official language is. Hmm, I see, so it has to be definitively be labelled as an official language, and not merely a recognition?
  • So it all boils down to the question: do high-quality secondary sources ever refer to the status of Punjabi in Pakistan as one of being an "official language"? – I feel there is a bit of a flaw with this, imo, but as I mentioned above, they're all known as 'regional' or 'provincial' languages, but these languages are never clearly labelled as 'official' languages, even though languages like Pashto and Sindhi are officially recognised by the provincial governments. I'm not sure what your take would be on this.
  • a fairly recent source that wouldn't fail to mention an official status of Punjabi in Pakistan if it actually was fact. – True, I have read the Descriptive Grammar (by Elena Bashir), as well as the 'Indo-Aryan languages' by C. Shakle. I do agree here, my only issue was again, whether it's possible they missed this specific act.
Nevertheless, clearly there's no consensus for this, so I don't think it's worth readding it, unless any you feel it should be mentioned in the 'Recognised Minority Languages'?نعم البدل (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Official recognition of a regional language does not turn it into an official language. Only legal regulation that explicitly designates it as such will do so (as in the case of Indian Punjab, but caveat WP:PRIMARY!), or reliable sources that explicitly describe it as such (either based on legal regulation or de facto usage). And I think it is quite a stretch to assume that three high-quality sources independently make the same lazy omission.
It is nothing unusual that a major language does not attain official status in a multi-lingual setting. Javanese is a prominent example: being the most widely spoken language in Indonesia, it is only recognized as a regional language on the national level and only recently gained official status at the provicial level in the Special Region of Yogyakarta.
Heving an entry under the parameter |minority= is of course ok if sufficiently sourced. User:EducatedRedneck already pointed out that we should not rely on government sources alone, but again have to look for secondary sources which support the claim that such an entry entails (see Template:Infobox_language: under |minority=, we give a "list of countries in which it is a recognized/protected minority language. This is intended for legal protection and similar de jure recognition, not simply being listed on a census and other de facto recognition"). –Austronesier (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier Would a secondary source for "Recognised Minority Languages" infobox require an implicit mention of the words "Recognised" or "protected Minority Language", or is that up to the editor's discretion?
If a source requires an implicit mention of the the word "official" to be classified as official, I assume the same due diligence must be done for the "Recognised Minority Languages" part. Thing is Punjabi's are the majority in Pakistan so minority wouldn't really fit here. UnbiasedSN (talk) 02:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thing is Punjabi's are the majority in Pakistan so minority wouldn't really fit here – It's not something I'm keen on as well. It makes it seem like Punjabi is a minor language in Pakistan, when obv that's not the case. نعم البدل (talk) 06:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's starting to look like Punjabi is actively identified as being not an official language. I'm not an expert at all, so perhaps I missed something, but using this Google Scholar search has only yielded several mentions that explicitly identify as not having attained official language status in the Punjab province of Pakistan, with some articles noting that Urdu was selected over it.
Perhaps we should propose a change to the article. In the beginning of the third paragraph of the "Status" section, I propose that we replace
It is, however, the official provincial language of Punjab, Pakistan, the second largest and the most populous province of Pakistan as well as in Islamabad Capital Territory.
with
It is widely spoken in Punjab, Pakistan,[1] the second largest and the most populous province of Pakistan as well as in Islamabad Capital Territory.
Nowiki markup of proposed revision
It is widely spoken in [[Punjab, Pakistan]],<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Hussain|first1=Fayyaz |last2=Khan |first2=Muhammad Asim |last3= Khan |first3=Hina |date=2018 |title=The implications of trends in Punjabi: As a covert and/or an overt Prestige in Pakistan |url=https://www.ahbabtrust.org/ojs/index.php/jicc/article/view/188 |journal=Kashmir Journal of Language Research |volume=21 |issue=2 |pages=59-75 |doi=10.46896/jicc.v3i01.188 |access-date=April 19, 2024|quote= Punjabi in Pakistan [is] language that is numerically prevalent.}}</ref> the second largest and the most populous province of Pakistan as well as in [[Islamabad]] Capital Territory.
I also propose we remove Despite gaining official recognition at the provincial level, from the beginning of the second paragraph in the "In Pakistan" section.
What do y'all think? EducatedRedneck (talk) 19:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC) EducatedRedneck (talk) 19:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@EducatedRedneck: – Unfortunately yes, in that case the "official recognition" thing has to go.
Noting here that I've implemented the above change. If someone objects, we can discuss it here. Thank you all for a good conversation, and helping us reach a consensus! EducatedRedneck (talk) 19:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hussain, Fayyaz; Khan, Muhammad Asim; Khan, Hina (2018). "The implications of trends in Punjabi: As a covert and/or an overt Prestige in Pakistan". Kashmir Journal of Language Research. 21 (2): 59–75. doi:10.46896/jicc.v3i01.188. Retrieved April 19, 2024. Punjabi in Pakistan [is] language that is numerically prevalent.

Protected edit request on 16 April 2024

[edit]

Change the image from what it is to ਪੰਜਾਬੀ,please, as the language displayed is not Punjabi. K1r4N-S0 (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[1][reply]

This image? It has Punjabi written in Shahmukhi - پنجابی and Gurmukhi - ਪੰਜਾਬੀ. I don't see why it needs to be changed. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deativating pending consensus. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ

Page Protection

[edit]

@ToBeFree: Hi, could we get the page unlocked now, please? نعم البدل (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello نعم البدل, is there a specific change you'd like to make? The protection will automatically expire in a few days. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ToBeFree: just wanted to add to the 'Software' section. نعم البدل (talk) 15:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could an {{edit protected}} template already help? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edits under "Phonology"

[edit]

@Fdom5997, hello! sorry for the small edit conflict. could I understand why the reverting? my edits were mostly about the visual nature and editing what was already there. Juwan (talk) 22:26, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No what you put was not already there. If you are going to contribute, you at least *need* to have a source cited for your contribution. Fdom5997 (talk) 23:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fdom5997 could you elaborate? I'll try to find a source if you explain what is wrong. Juwan (talk) 22:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name of the commute responsible of preparation of the standard date of publication of the standard etc 114.31.137.85 (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map

[edit]

This article is discussing about the Punjabi language, and all its varieties/dialects. Even the total number of speakers include numbers from the varieties that are separately enumerated in Pakistan, yet the map depicts only the areas where Punjabi in general is enumerated, disregarding other areas. I would argue that it is misleading and the map should, therefore, be replaced with the one I have recently posted:

Map of the Punjabi language in South Asia.

It would be a better look for the article, in line with other articles of languages which include similar looking maps. Thanks. SouthAsiaMapped (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Punjabi_language&oldid=1258591087"