This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lincolnshire, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lincolnshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LincolnshireWikipedia:WikiProject LincolnshireTemplate:WikiProject LincolnshireLincolnshire
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saints, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Saints and other individuals commemorated in Christianliturgical calendars on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SaintsWikipedia:WikiProject SaintsTemplate:WikiProject SaintsSaints
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose The very sources used in this article use this name - see Britannica, Catholic Encyclopedia, the Transactions of the Jewish Historical Society. Even Find a Grave agrees. Google Scholar shows that this is a common name for the child - even into the 2000s (see the search for Peter Dan's article on "COMPETING TRUTHS: ANTI-SEMITISM, BLOOD LIBEL AND THE MAINTENANCE OF EVIL" from 2008). If there is another common name that would be fine - but the mere fact that he was never officially declared a saint does not mean that we can't use the word saint in the title if most sources refer to him as such. Ealdgyth - Talk12:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
There is no one source to support the statements in the article that the claim was false. Not one, yet it is stated several times as fact? These claims need to be changed to alleged or similar etc. No sources at all either way, so it cant be claimed to be a false claim? 2A00:23C4:22D:CA01:7C0C:9C9:58A1:AA60 (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it’s extremely clear what they are saying and what they think needs to be changed actually. You are obfuscating clearly, likely because you have no agenda or bias. Peppapignig (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's some need to follow standard practice on the Infobox and also to avoid reverts. While the fact this and other similar children were regarded as saints is repugnant, it is important to recognise that they had a status as a saint and not to effectively whitewash this fact. Likewise, we do not want to make it look like the veneration is an actual signal that there was something holy about the figure.
Also "Little Sir Hugh" the name of a later derived song, and not the name given to the putative saint while he was venerated.
I'm not quite convinced this is right, as it obscures the historical status they had. Consistency is best. Is there a policy on infoboxes or is it a discretionary matter? Jim Killock(talk)18:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it obscures the fact. The fact is mentioned in the lede's second sentence. But if you want to change it back to the saint infobox, I don't object. Do we have information that could fill in the "suppressed" parts? Valereee (talk) 13:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need a larger discussion if we want to return. It's a misuse of the infobox IMO, as these figures were never venerated by the church. The only use for "suppressed" saints are those that venerated and then suppressed (such as Margaret the Virgin), while these figures were never saints in the first place. For example, putting "No" in the "canonized_date" box is clearly not intended usage of this infobox. glman (talk) 13:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks, @Glman for The only use for "suppressed" saints are those that venerated and then suppressed (such as Margaret the Virgin), while these figures were never saints in the first place., I am not very familiar with these things. Okay, @JimKillock, maybe the solution for concerns about consistency, a discussion somewhere, maybe WT:MOS with notification to WP:WikiProject Catholicism, WP:WikiProject Infoboxes, Template talk:Infobox saint? Probably not something we can decide here at this obscure talk page. Valereee (talk) 13:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's a solid approach - we definitely need a wider consensus, as there are clearly several similar cases. glman (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, I would also prefer a wider discussion.
To be clear tho, these children were "venerated" as "saints"; it is the case that they were never officially agreed to be saints by the Papacy, but the need for this step was a late development roughly dating to this period. Prior to that, it wasn't considered necessary for the central church to agree to someone's sainthood. Clearly some people including two English Kings did claim Hugh as a saint, for their own unpleasant reasons. His veneration as a saint is precisely how the idea of blood libel was circulated, thus making this less clear isn't entirely helpful, in my view.
However it is done, ensuring that their status is clear, accurate and relevant information about the cult is presented seems the most important thing. Jim Killock(talk)20:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]