Wikipedia talk:In the news
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RfC at WT:BLP
[edit]There is currently an RfC concerning a proposed change to WP:SUSPECT which if adopted could impact some nominations at ITNC. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Update Baseball ITNR
[edit]The last update about the Baseball recurring items was sometime ago, since then baseball landscape changed a bit since then, i suggest the following updates to baseball list:
- First, the introduction of WBSC Premier12, it was created in 2015 as a new relevant baseball tournament (not replacing World Baseball Classic, but complementing it in a way similar to FIFA Confederations Cup), it was part of Olympic baseball qualification in 2019 and likely will be again for 2027, also is the tournament that gives most points for WBSC World Rankings, even more than WBC.
- Second, it seems that Japan Series was inserted due Asian Series, while the Asian Series is not existing anymore, i suggest to not only keep the Japan Series, but maybe insert the Korean Series as part of list akin to Association Football´s Big Five national leagues.
So, it would basically look like this:
- International Tournaments
- The following domestic championships:
Expected stories per year: 3 in non International tournament years, 4 in years with WBC or Premier12 Meganinja202 (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Typically items are expected to be posted a few consecutive years through regular WP:ITNC nomintations before considering for addition to ITNR. See #Proposal for addition to ITN/R (above). —Bagumba (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose both changes. The WBSC Premier12 has only been held three times, the world's top players do not take part, and there's barely any interest from broadcasters or the media. The rationale offered for adding the Korea Series makes no sense at all, it's obscure even to baseball fans outside that country. A quick glance at our articles will demonstrate how little attention either competition receives. And finally, neither competition has been successfully nominated at ITN/C so I don't see why they should be on ITNR. Modest Genius talk 13:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose WBSC Premier12. It was not posted at ITN recently, and I have not heard of this event. Unsure about Korean Series. Natg 19 (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose addition ITNR is for when articles get nominated and posted multiple times- this doesn't have consensus to even post this edition. If anything, I would support removing Japan Series rather than adding lots more events Joseph2302 (talk) 19:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Japan Series appears to have been posted in each of the last 10 years.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- it was posted this year too Meganinja202 (talk) 10:54, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- Japan Series appears to have been posted in each of the last 10 years.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. WBSC Premier12 is not ITNR enough as per above. KBO League is the most popular league in South Korea (even more popular than their top-flight football league), but coverage of the Korean Series from outside South Korea may actually be even less than WBSC Premier12. This may change in a decade or so, but not yet for 2024. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Pathetic
[edit]I largely gave up contributing here a few months ago because of the appalling system (?) of posting items, but actually knowing the man led me to watch the nomination of the recent death of Ian Redpath. He was nominated four days ago. The nomination has had nothing but universal support, but it is still not posted. Please don't respond with excuses for our poor overworked Admins. Just fix the bloody system!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 04:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- What do you suggest, besides more active admins? I guess there could be a queue process. Also there is a tag {{@ITNA}} to ping the admins who usually post. Natg 19 (talk) 05:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I looked right through all the instructions and found nothing about that. I suggest obviously simple noms, like the one I'm describing, could be addressed in seconds, not four days. Maybe a triage approach. HiLo48 (talk) 06:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't look at the article yet. But it looks like an admin just rejected posting of the RD for quality concerns. Natg 19 (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- A few days late! HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at the page history, many tags were added at 07:36 2 Dec.[1] —Bagumba (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like the system worked as it should, then. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, because no negative comments appeared here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- +1 Vanilla Wizard 💙 18:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like the system worked as it should, then. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at the page history, many tags were added at 07:36 2 Dec.[1] —Bagumba (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- A few days late! HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't look at the article yet. But it looks like an admin just rejected posting of the RD for quality concerns. Natg 19 (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I looked right through all the instructions and found nothing about that. I suggest obviously simple noms, like the one I'm describing, could be addressed in seconds, not four days. Maybe a triage approach. HiLo48 (talk) 06:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Instead of huffing and puffing here, why didn't you contact an Admin on their Talk page, if this was so urgent for you? Khuft (talk) 21:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- It wasn't urgent for me. Don't misrepresent what I wrote. And don't try to make this about me. And how is one supposed to contact an Admin? Their posts aren't labelled as coming from Admins. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- For not being about you, you sure are replying to your own thread an awful lot, not to mention drawing attention to your conduct by using invective ("pathetic", "appalling", "fix the bloody system", "excuses for our poor overworked admins") which isn't really needed to make your point. WP:CIV didn't cease to exist during the interim in which you "largely gave up contributing here". Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
"And how is one supposed to contact an Admin? Their posts aren't labelled as coming from Admins."
If you find it necessary to notify an admin, there are many sysops who regularly post on ITN. You've been around longer than I have, so I would imagine you recognize a few of their names by now, but if you do not, click on some user pages and there's a decent chance you'll find one rather quickly. Or find an entry that has been posted - the user who announced that it's been posted is probably an administrator. Vanilla Wizard 💙 19:31, 6 December 2024 (UTC)- Not "probably". IS an admin. ITN is fully protected, so only admins can post, or make changes to ITN. Natg 19 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I should have italicized "probably" for effect, I'm not very good at being facetious Vanilla Wizard 💙 21:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not "probably". IS an admin. ITN is fully protected, so only admins can post, or make changes to ITN. Natg 19 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- It wasn't urgent for me. Don't misrepresent what I wrote. And don't try to make this about me. And how is one supposed to contact an Admin? Their posts aren't labelled as coming from Admins. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Seems to still be missing several citations. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
ITNRD wording is posing problems now
[edit]
It is important to keep in mind the original RFC (Wikipedia talk:In the news/2016 RD proposal); prior to this, we would be judging how "notable" (not the WP:N definition but the more common definition, is the person worthy of note) of how someone was as to post a RD blurb. The RFC was made so that it was to remove endless fights on this evaluation of being "notable" and that as long as there was a quality page about a person (or other formerly-living organism), and reported in the news. As such, when the language of the RFC was added, it purposely did not include the word "notable", in meaning that all RDs as long as there was a stand-along page about the person/living organism with appropirate quality. It should also be kept in mind this introduced the RD line, as previously all deaths that were covered were blurbs, which was a major source of disruption for ITN, and making this RD line was meant to be a nice clean shortcut to eliminate the bulk of these problems.
However, it should be stressed that to have a stand-alone article about a person/organism, that we expect the appropriate WP:N to have been passed as that is generally a necessary condition. (It can be an GNG or SNG, but all other policy and guidelines have to be met). This is particularly due when the death is the primary reason there are sources about the person, which is why BLP1E exists; a single event (including death) doesn't make a person notable. I'll also point to the discussion in the followup Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 57#Are animals eligible for the Recent Deaths section? where many shows support for including animals and other organizations as long as they were notable in the WP:N way.
Now within relatively short time frames we have had cases of where articles have been created on the death of the person/organism, and where the WP:N notability is not clearly obvious and BLP1E really applies (WP:ITNC#(Posted) RD: Brian Thompson, and a last month Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/November 2024#(Posted) RD: Peanut the squirrel). We have had editors in both of these claim a few bad assumptions, such as (paraphrasing)
- If you think its not notable, take it to AFD - the problem with this is that notability depends on what sourcing can be found, and it can be bad faith simply to rush a newly created article to AFD as more sourcing could be found in time (but not in the seven-day cycle for ITN).
- ITNRD just say it needs to have a standalone article - That's not in the spirit of what the RFC actually was deciding, since it wasn't eliminating the WP:N requirement from RD articles, just that we shouldn't use real-world notability or significance for RDs of people that had standalone (read: WP:N-notable) articles.
We also can't help that other editors that are not active in ITN nor have deep understanding around BLP and NOTNEWS that will create articles without any checks on them. The system is weighed in favor of article creation (for good reason) but that should still mean that we at ITN need to be making sure that the article that is going to be shown in the ITN still meets all expected quality aspects, which includes notability (since that's related to sourcing, verifiability, neutrality and no original research). \
Now, it may be possible that there is a notable person that dies (in a non-eventful manner), that no one created an article for, and we rush to create and expand it, with clear indication of notability, from old and new sourcing; I can't remember when but I am pretty confident that I've seen editors dive in to create and improve such articles, and we'd post that. But since the RFC we have also rejected newly created articles on people/organisms that do not meet any GNG/SNG outside their death and are not improved to show that within the seven day period. This is why the claims "well, just take it to AFD to test notability" is really a bad approach because it can stymie good article development, and why ITN should be incorporating review of the WP:N-notability factors for a newly created article; we already do this for events as well, so there's zero reason such BLP-type articles should not also be reviewed the same way.
Further, holding what is being said, there is now a simple way to game ITN to include truely non-WP:N-notable individuals that at least have a mention of their death, since you just have to create an article that just barely passes a stub level, and saying "Well, its a standalone article, take it to AFD, then". That definitely wasn't the intent of the RFC.
To that point, we should consider rewording the ITNRD language to again reflect the RFC, but to be clear that we should evaluate notability as per WP:N (that being, significant coverage about that person, and per BLP1E, not coverage strictly related to the event), but once the basic demonstration of WP:N is met, then it doesn't matter how real-world notable they were, we would post the article in the RD line assuming all other quality factors are there. — Masem (t) 01:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- My relatively simple proposal would be that !votes should consider (i.e. comment on) both the quality and the demonstration of WP-definition notability of the articles. Any !vote that doesn't effectively box-check "the article meets/doesn't meet GNG" would be given less consideration in a posting decision. And still no need for comments on the (non-WP definition) notability of the RD subject. Kingsif (talk) 03:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- ITN is not a place to debate article notability. Despite your concerns, that's literally why talk pages and AfD exist. Ed [talk] [OMT] 07:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion archived w/o decision
[edit]We recently had a discussion to remove Bundesliga from ITN/R, and in my opinion it received clear consensus in support before being archived. I was the nominator so I shouldn’t be the one to adjudicate, but can an uninvolved party adjudicate or at least revive the discussion? Thanks. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 15:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)